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Jim Ryan, president of the University of Virginia: So I understand that your own kids are entering this stage of life on which you are expert. What’s that like for you and what’s it like for them?

Dr. Meg Jay, staff psychotherapist and author: I love having college students, you know, that’s my favorite age, so I’m happy that I have, you know, one. I have a college freshman and a high school senior, so I have practically two of my very own college students. I feel like it’s my reward for surviving the teenage years. 

You know, I also feel like it’s really cool to finally have something special to offer them as a parent, in a way that I didn’t before, although I have to say that I’ve raised two pretty normal kids, so neither one of them really listened to my advice. Other people’s kids seem real interested, though.

Ryan: I know that feeling. 

Hello everyone. I’m Jim Ryan, president of the University of Virginia, and I’d like to welcome all of you to another episode of “Inside UVA.” This podcast is a chance for me to speak with some of the amazing people at the University and to learn more about what they do and who they are. My hope is that listeners will ultimately have a better understanding of how UVA works and a deeper appreciation of the remarkably talented and dedicated people who make UVA the institution it is today. 

I’m joined by Dr Meg Jay, a developmental clinical psychologist, bestselling author and expert on young adulthood. She specializes in helping 20-somethings navigate career choices, relationships and mental health. Her books, “The Defining Decade” and “The Twentysomething Treatment,” offer advice on making the most of this pivotal stage of life. A UVA alum, Dr Jay completed her undergraduate degree here before returning for a clinical internship at Student Health. She now balances private practice, public speaking and her work as a therapist at CAPS, while continuing to shape conversations about early adulthood. Her TED Talk, “Why 30 Is Not the New 20,” is one of the most-watched talks ever, and her insights are valuable, not just for young adults, but for parents, educators and anyone guiding them. 

Dr. Jay, welcome to the podcast.

Jay: Thank you, President Ryan. Nowhere I’d rather be than a podcast about UVA, so thank you.

Ryan: I appreciate that. So, I am really curious to speak with you as the parent of three current 20-somethings and I could use some advice. But before we get there, I’m curious – what were your 20s like?

Jay: Like most 20-somethings, they were challenging. I had some big adventures, but I also had a handful of different jobs and different roommates and different breakups and different cross-country moves. So, let’s just say it was a lot. They tend to be a lot. 

Ryan: And were your experiences as a 20-something, did those experiences shape your interest in that time period? 

Jay: You know, at the time? No, it wasn’t that like I was in my 20s, and I thought, “I know somebody needs to take on this space.” I actually didn’t think to, or know, there was a possibility to specialize in 20-somethings till I was in grad school, although I decided to be a psychologist when I was an undergrad at UVA and then as a graduate student at Berkeley.

Ryan: Oh, so can you tell me a little bit about those experiences and what brought you to UVA in the first place?

Jay: I don’t know if you remember, but back in my day, maybe back in your day, people didn’t visit every school they applied to, or even the school they were going to attend. So I really fell in love with UVA from afar, which, and you know, kind of what it represented, which, to me, was this amazing public school education that could really be a game-changer for me if I managed to get there.

I will say for the listeners, I managed to get there on my second try. I didn’t get in the first time around, but came as a transfer student, had an amazing experience. So I have a special place in my heart for the transfer students out there. 

And then, you know, I think without knowing it, I did college “the right way,” and that I took my Gen Ed courses, and was sitting in the class in Gilmer one day and realizing, well, if I love my psychology classes and I can’t wait to come and I can’t wait to do the reading and I’m interested in all the material, then maybe I should do that for a living. So that was really when I had this “aha!” moment. I’d done my exploration and said, “I love psychology. That’s what I’m going to do.” 

Ryan: And was that not what you were planning to do when you arrived?

Jay: I’m not – “planning” would have been a strong word, planning to do anything. I think I thought maybe law school. I did enjoy writing. I do enjoy writing persuasively, which I have managed to do in a very different sort of way. So I think I thought maybe law.

Ryan: So you’ve built a career around 20-somethings. And why is that period of time so interesting to you? And why is it so important?

Jay: Well, I’m preaching to the choir to you, probably to say that you know that’s really where all the action is, that we know that 80% of life’s most defining moments take place by age 35 and that’s because when people are in their 20s, they are building careers and meeting their partners and picking their cities and starting their families. So when you work with 20-somethings, you get to help people get in front of all that. And it’s really just quite wonderful to be able to be part of that.

Ryan: A lot of people would say to 20-somethings, “You have plenty of time to figure out your life,” but seems like you’re suggesting maybe not.

Jay: The real reason I don’t say that is 20-somethings don’t actually like to hear that. They perceive that as an unhelpful brush-off, that they’re feeling concerned of, “What if my life doesn’t work out? What if I don’t find a job? What if no one ever loves me?” And I think rather than feeling reassured or brushed off, I think 20-somethings rather would have someone take their problems seriously. 

So rather than saying, “Oh, you have time,” you know, I emphasize that it takes time. It takes time to build a good career. It takes time to build a good life, and the easiest time to get started is probably right now.

Ryan: What do you think are the biggest challenges facing 20-somethings today?

Jay: Well, you know what I tell college students is that the hardest thing about your 20s – which are, you know, usually coming right after graduation – is that they’re the most uncertain years of life. So they’re probably the only time of life where you wake up in the morning and you don’t know where you’re going to live in five years, or who you’re going to love in five years, or whether you can pay your bills, or whether you’re going to be happy. That that’s probably the only decade of life where you wake up to that much uncertainty. And I think just educating people about how hard that is, the brain doesn’t like that. The brain interprets uncertainty as danger. So it’s very normal to feel quite stressed and distressed during your 20s, sort of in response to that.

Ryan: And what inspired you to write “The Defining Decade”? Was it from your practice, or was it something else?

Jay: Yeah, so that, you know, I think at UVA is when I realized, OK, I want to be a psychologist. And for all the college students out there listening, that was about all I knew. I’m going to go that direction. So I went in that direction that, you know, I didn’t go directly to grad school. I went to work for Outward Bound first; that was my first job out of UVA, and then that actually helped me get back into grad school at Berkeley a few years later. 

And then when I was in grad school at Berkeley, of course, I thought I was going to go in and work with one age group, and then I thought I would work with kids. I found that to be very difficult and heartbreaking. But meanwhile, I was in Berkeley, surrounded by – I was in a college town, so I had a lot of clients. And, you know, like in Student Health, where I was working, I was doing a lot of teaching. So I had hundreds of college students lining up in office hours, and they were all really looking for guidance. 

But I felt like, in terms of pop culture, the 20s were really trivialized and seen as this sort of developmental downtime, but actually they’re, as you know, a real developmental sweet spot in the defining decade of life. And so as a matter of fact, I thought, “I need to find a book that I can recommend to all these students and clients about their 20s.” And I went to Barnes & Noble back when people used to do that, and I strolled the aisles and looked for one, but there weren’t any books specifically about this age group that really took the problem seriously. So I figured, “Well, I guess I need to do that.” So I was about to graduate, and it wasn’t long after that that I started the book.

Ryan: So, your book has become something of a cultural phenomenon, and your TED Talk, obviously has been seen by millions of people. Did you expect your work to resonate so widely and deeply?

Jay: Yes and no. Yes, I did think it would resonate. I felt it was deeply needed, which is why I wrote the book. And I remember when the book was originally being sold to publishers, there were many publishers that said, “No 20-something would be caught dead with this book.” And I said, “Just wait. Just wait.” 

So I did think it would resonate, but I think, no, you never really get used to waking up and reading emails from 20-somethings in Japan or India who say your book has really made a difference. For me, that’s pretty amazing,

Ryan: I bet. And then your latest book, “The Twentysomething Treatment,” tackles young adult mental health in in relatively new way. What’s the core message of that book?

Jay: The core message is that the 20s are an uncertain and difficult time, and that’s normal, and that most 20-somethings don’t have disorders that need to be treated. They have problems they’re trying to trying to solve. So “The Twentysomething Treatment” really takes a developmental lens, emphasizing development over diagnosis, and focusing on skills over pills.

Ryan: And what are some of the best strategies? So you’re a 20-something, and you’re trying to figure out an awful lot, as you mentioned; what are some of the healthiest strategies that 20-somethings can pursue?

Jay: Here’s one you’re probably not going to expect me to say, is that the, actually, the leading source of positive growth and change in your 20s is a good job, rather than, I think 20-somethings think, “Oh, there’s going to be a breathing strategy or a thinking strategy, or, you know, something that I do on the inside to sort of change my mental health.” That in your 20s, your mental health gets better when your life gets better. And so most young adults are served by going out there and finding the best job that they can, because it, you know, that really spurs a lot of growth and change. 

It also creates a lot of new challenges, but that’s where the confidence and the competence come from. Like I said earlier, one reason your 20s are so difficult is because they’re so uncertain. And in your 20s, you can’t really make the world a more certain place, but you can become more certain of yourself as you can gain the competencies where you feel like, “OK, I’m figuring it out. I’ve figured out how to be a worker. Now next is I’ve got to figure out how to make friends in a new town. I’ve got to figure out how to have a relationship.” But just sitting back and avoiding and worrying about those things does not improve people’s mental health.

Ryan: And how would you define a good job?

Jay: That is a great question. You know, I think a good job is the best job you can get for where you are at your point in life. And so, you know, it probably needs to pay the bills. Most of us need to pay the bills in our 20s. But also in general, I encourage people to go out there and find a job that will put you on the steepest learning curve that you can find. That we know that your learning curve and your 20s predicts your earning curve in your 30s and beyond. 

And it’s not all about money. I’m a psychologist for a reason. I believe in meaning over money, but the best sort of learning curve we have in our 20s, the skills that we accrue help us earn not just more money, but competence, independence, meaning, purpose in our 30s and beyond. 

So I really, really encourage college students to get out there and find jobs where they’re going to learn the most, challenge themselves the most, and just keep that learning curve going like they’re still in school. 

Ryan: So what would you say to either 20-somethings or their parents who feel like there’s already too much pressure on 20-somethings to find a great job? Does it ever get to the point where it’s unhealthy to be striving for, quote-unquote, a great job? 

Jay: Well, I didn’t say they should go out and find a great job. Because I don’t actually think those are available to most 20-somethings.

Ryan: That’s really good clarification. 

Jay: That’s the lawyer that could have been in me coming out. I said they should go out and find the best job they can. And so, the one where they’re going to learn the most and grow and change and challenge themselves, and that’s very different from, like, a great job. And so, you know, not that I did everything perfectly, but as I said, my first job out of UVA was as an Outward Bound instructor – hardly the most ambitious, flashiest, most important job on the planet, but boy, did I grow and change a lot in five years leading people through all sorts of scenarios. And I came out of that experience feeling like, “If I can do that, I can do anything.” 

And it also really helped me go on to get some other really great things, because people found that to be interesting and impressive, but it wasn’t sort of great in that high-pressure sense.

Ryan: And it doesn’t have to be a conventional job either.

Jay: Right, no, absolutely. You know, I think wherever you’re going to learn and grow and change, that – we know that on average, young adults have nine jobs between the ages of 20 and 35. And, you know, I’ve said that so many times on podcasts that one day I sat down to count my own to see if that even was true for me, and I actually did have nine. So, you know, to also realize that, you know, get the next good job you can and most people are going to have it for a year or two and then say, “OK, am I still learning? Am I still growing? Is this still working?” Then sign up for another year. And if it’s not, it’s time to move on to the next one.

Ryan: And what about finding work that you love and could see building a life around? Is that something that 20-somethings should be thinking about, or should they be thinking in shorter time increments, like what matters most is, you know, like you said, get a good job for you know, think about it in a year or two timeframe.

Jay: I would love for everyone to ultimately have a job or a career that they love. I don’t know that you’re going to have that as your first job out of college. 

I have the most wonderful career. I love it every single day. You would probably say the same thing, but I didn’t love all the jobs that I had to get to where I am right now. And so, I think it’s sort of balancing that, you know, what you might ultimately love with what you might have to do to get there. So, you know, I think part of me always wanted to write books, but I’m not sure what I would have done about that. At 22, I didn’t really have anything to write about, right? So, I did what I was interested in; I did what I was good at. I saw where that led, and then ultimately, I was able to bring in all, all the parts of me and of work that I love, was able to bring all that together.

Ryan: And what about relationships, either friendships or romantic relationships? What’s the healthiest way for 20-somethings to think about those?

Jay: You know, I’ve actually come to feel like the healthiest way to think about it is probably very similar to the way that we just talked about jobs. I don’t know if you’re going to have nine different relationships between 18 and 35, but you’re probably going to have more than one. So, find the best one that you think you can see what you learned, sign up for more of that, or figure out, “You know what? That actually wasn’t as healthy or happy of a relationship as I thought it was. I need to learn from that and do something different now.” 

And so, I think thinking about it as a similar journey – that it’s something that we learn more about as we do it, finding out that you didn’t have the right major, you didn’t have the right job, or you didn’t have the right relationship. I mean, that’s just information. It’s not a mistake or wasted time. 

Ryan: Yeah, that’s a healthy way to think about it. So, switching gears a little bit, you are a therapist to UVA students, and I’m curious, so you have a front row seat to college life. What are some of the things that separate students who thrive in college, as opposed to students who struggle? 

Jay: Yeah, I think students who are thriving are the ones who really have figured out how to own the college experience and try to get as much as they can out of classes and everything in between. They’ve kind of made that shift from the high school “What can I get away with?” mentality to the “What can I get out of this?” mentality. 

And I say that with no judgment; I think that you know what you sort of do in high school is you check the boxes and you jump through the hoops and you cram in all the apps and the clubs, and you sort of lose sight that, like this is actually all for you. It’s not just to get something. And so, I think coming into college is time to realize none of this, your classes aren’t for your professors. It’s all here for you. And so, to really be thinking about, “What can I get out, like I said, not just of classes, but of everything in between?”

Ryan: There was a dean of the Yale Law School named Guido Calabresi, and he used to give an opening speech every year where he told entering students, “You can now step off the treadmill –”

Jay: Oh, nice. I like that, absolutely. 

Ryan: “– and take advantage of what is here and not just check boxes.”

Jay: Yeah, I teach – I’ve actually been on Semester at Sea twice, and on the time I teach. That’s the only place I teach anymore, and I teach positive psychology. And at the beginning of the semester, you know, I have to say, like, “This, this class is not for me. I’ve already read this stuff. I know all this. I have a pretty good life. This is actually for you. If you start checking boxes in positive psychology, then you really, to use your terms, ‘need to get off the treadmill.’ This should really be about making you happier or healthier. I’m kind of doing OK.”

Ryan: So, I understand that your own kids are entering this stage of life on which you are expert. What’s that like for you, and what’s it like for them?

Jay: I love having college students. You know, that’s my favorite age, so I’m happy that I have, you know, one. I have a college freshman and a high school senior, so I have practically two of my very own college students. I feel like it’s my reward for surviving the teenage years. You know? I also feel like it’s really cool to finally have something special to offer them as a parent, in a way that I didn’t before, although I have to say that I’ve raised two pretty normal kids, so neither one of them really listened to my advice. Other people’s kids seem real interested, though. 

Ryan: I know that feeling. 

So, last couple of questions, if you don’t mind. One is, if you could change one thing about how society approaches young adulthood, what would it be?

Jay: You know, my answer to this is that I would have society take a page from �鶹�ƽ�� book and do more social norming, that I actually learned about social norming when I was an undergrad at UVA. And there’s been a lot of great work done here around alcohol and social norming, that really, really groundbreaking stuff. And actually, took the spirit of that into a lot of my books, that social norming attitude. And by that, I mean, you know, for 20-somethings, rather than trivializing or pathologizing 20-somethings, I think we need to be normalizing their struggles and educating people about what the 20s are really like and teaching solutions.

Ryan: Well, that leads to my next and final question, and it may be a similar answer, and I’m wondering if you could give young adults or their parents, and here I’m asking for a friend, one piece of advice, what would it be?

Jay: Yes, I actually gave an orientation talk at UVA last summer, and this was my advice to the parents there. I said, “Parents, please do not tell your college students that these are going to be the best years of their lives.” I tell college students if these turn out to be the best years of your life, something has gone terribly wrong for students. I want them to have fun at UVA, but I also hope they’ll use the time to really invest in themselves and get the skills that they need. So, life gets better as they go, and all the research shows life gets better as we go, as it should. 

Ryan: Good advice. Dr. Jay, thank you so much for spending time with me. I really enjoyed the conversation, and thanks so much for your work.

Jay: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Ben Larsen: “Inside UVA” is a production of WTJU 91.1 FM and the Office of the President at the University of Virginia. “Inside UVA” is produced by Kaukab Rizvi, Benjamin Larsen, Mary Garner McGehee, Matt Webber and Jaden Evans. Special thanks to Maria Jones and Jane Kelly. Our music is “Turning to You” from Blue Dot Sessions. 

You can listen and subscribe to “Inside UVA” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll be back soon with another conversation about the life of the University.